::: continued from part 1 :::

JC: You know that for the last century a quality gun was considered to be a hand made gun. What are your comments on that?
KL: Yes I understand what you mean and agree to a certain extent. In the 1800’s machines did not exist to machine parts to close tolerances. In fact steel was not applied to firearm barrels until 1880 by Joseph Whitworth. So, in order to make a complicated and often luxurious design required the effort of craftsman coming up from a long apprenticeship. Even had there been machines to do the intricate work, cost would have been prohibitive. After the losses of craftsmen from WWI and WWII, gun companies began to close from labor shortages. The apprenticeship programs fell away and guns soured in price as they have today. This problem has continued up and into the 1960’s. With the advent of the NC machine (Numerically Controlled) suddenly tolerances were achievable. With space flight came new materials and technology. The Gun Trade was aware of these changes but the cost of refitting with these new machines was not cost effective. It still presents a problem to this day. Joseph Brazier closed from the demise of the owner in 1996 forcing some name manufacturers to scramble to make their own locks, actions and components. For those who could afford it. The cost was massive due to the loss of Brazier.

Acquired in 2001, I decided that the Trade must change. It is too fragile and could cripple gunmakers with the death of just a single person. In the UK there remains one supplier of forgings, perhaps one source to case harden actions, few stock makers, barrel filers, and various critical trades are just about done. Brazier decided to offer reverse engineering to the Trade and engineering allowing those critical parts and components to be made by CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled).
To redesign existing guns for the machine. To make it affordable to buy parts, reduce delivery time and produce at a competitive price.

Those that remain as hands on craftsmen have all the work they can stand and with a steady supply of used guns to contend with what remains of the Trade is secure. But to say that the machine has replaced the man is not true at all. It has increased the number of men actually producing the components a hundred fold. There are about 45 companies that support the Wilkes project. More than 600 skilled craftsmen with higher education and skills. 100 million dollars in machines and more that support these shops. Many with apprentice programs. So nothing has changed really. The subcontractors just have become more skilled. So is a hand made part better? The answer I think is best left with the admirer. Can a Wilkes shotgun be made by hand? No it cannot. Nor could a Space Craft be made by hand either. I just see man’s skill has helped him achieve impossible things. Brazier just wants to lead the Trade into the 21st century. John and Tom Wilkes finally understood that, and it was their contribution to the Trade to see that their name would be on the gun for the Trade to follow. It was for that reason and no other that the Wilkes gun was designed. John and Tom Wilkes have made great guns by hand. There will be no more.
John told me to make a gun for him and me.
We would then go shooting and people would follow. I have completed that obligation having given my Masonic word it would be done. I hope the Trade will appreciate the contribution of John and Tom’s vision.

JC: You have been in the gun business for 35 years. How did that help you in the thought process of gun design?
KL: Every person is a reflection of his surroundings. Mr. Joe Bojalad of Pittsburgh over the years has probably been the greatest influence. His collection of fine guns has been the source of many conversations concerning designs and the shortcomings of various contributions. 20 years around Joe and you will draw some conclusions. So Joe for sure is responsible for the thought process. If there is a foundation it is Joe Bojalad. Me, I am a little out there somewhere.

JC: You say you use a different process for designing of guns can you tell me a little about that?
KL: I keep the answer to that very close really. But I use a system to design that shortens the time required. The Wilkes guns as example if designed normally by me would have taken about 8 years. It would have involved a prototype and frankly I just don’t have that kind of time left. So, I used another method which I apply to any design project I undertake. It replicates me 20 fold. Sorry I cannot be more specific.

JC: Well, if you do not prototype then how do you prove a design?
KL: I understand you but, let me answer it this way. I designed and built houses, wrote books, etc. Well, to write a book one must know the beginning and the end. And like a book, I wrote down every part (chapter) as I envisioned it to completion. Then I designed every part together. Once all the parts were assembled the gun was completed. I changed I think a plunger and a couple of springs but the book reads like it was written. Of course if you can’t write, you do have a problem. Designing a gun is not much different except you do loose a lot of sleep testing your design in your head… believe me!

JC: In looking at the hinge pins on your Wilkes design I notice that they do not come out the sides. Is that surface covered and polished off?
KL: No. A number of technologies are used. The hinge pin is threaded into a 90 degree blind hole from the inside. It does not come out. It is a design exercise for sure. I designed it three ways in progression of difficulty as I was told that it could not be done. I admit it is scary but I have good people that push the envelope with me and this separates the men from the boys. There are a couple of other features on the Wilkes that will humble a machinist. But basically the gun is about human hands being off the gun. Therefore you can only see 2 screws on the gun and those will disappear as well shortly.

JC: From looking at the photos of the barrels and the gun itself, the overall appearance of the Wilkes seems very, how can I say, clean…crisp.
Is that an intended look or a fortunate side effect?
KL: Yes it is both actually. The gun has a bifurcated lump to use Woodward term. It means a locking bolt in the middle or near center of the barrels. This allows for a shallower frame. A Browning as example has an “Under Lug” or locking bolt under the barrel. This requires the frame to be deeper. Another problem that historically causes a gun to be deeper is dictated by the Top Lever which is often three parts. I designed a one piece Top Lever that performs multiple functions and is retained in position by the second function of the stop that holds it open. The result is a shallower frame with fewer parts.

But not only is the frame shallower but shorter was well. This is due to a small figure eight part called a “Cocking Bar Insert”. The problem with making a trigger plate shorter was the mechanism for holding the cocking bar in place required a lot of space. I designed a solution that eliminates all those mechanisms and therefore allows the gun to be 1 to 3 inches shorter in length. The lack of these visual complications in my opinion makes the Wilkes action an art form. I have had several requests to sell an action for that purpose. I will retain one for that reason and within limits about 10 more.

JC: Karl, this is monumentally important technology you have brought to bear here. In your mind and vision, what do you see the inward reaching ramifications will be for the future of the Trade and the rest of the gunmaking world?”
KL: Well, I truly believe the Trade has changed as a result. I think we saw that in 1880. Again in 1904 with the Woodward O/U. Now what I believe we can expect is a higher level of sophistication with more precision from highly skilled gunmakers. The yoke is being removed to allow for innovation. The antiquated way critical parts were being made that stifled the Trade now has relief. Barrels will never be the same. Wood will completely change as a restriction to design. I think the door has just opened where pure design can be accomplished within the reach of most shooters. I warn there will have to be readjustments. But I see no craftsman left behind. The restrictions on the mind have been removed. That is what John Wilkes wanted for the next 150 years. I raised the bar for him as far as I could reach.

JC: It’s obvious you have invested a tremendous amount of time, energy as well as a substantial monetary investment. What was the seed, the impetus that provided the internal inertia for you to reach your goal in this?”
KL: Hummm? I think a bird must fly. A horse must run. At LTV Space Systems they let me fly with my designs in space. On the ground Joe Bojalad, Mike Lowe, Wally Bridwell and others let me run. John Wilkes, Daniele Perazzi and Frank Pachmayr gave me their track. We all climb mountains. I have been lucky to share a part of it with them.

JC: Karl, I, for one, am thoroughly impressed. I have known you for many years and have always respected your vision and fortitude. I will not ask if you have any other equally impressive projects on the table. I know you very likely do. I am willing to wait and hear from you when the time is right.

A somewhat more general question… Do you see yourself maintaining your image and status as an inventor/innovator/developer/provider of the gun trade for the foreseeable future?
KL: Status I am not much on. Regular Marine material. I realize I am a little out there but mean to contribute to the mutual benefit of others. I do have to be rained in with all I have in mind and on the ground. I have a number of designs to challenge the Wilkes which is fun. Brazier allows me to aid other manufacturers in the same way. That’s about 25 years of engineering to do at a dead run. I would like to shoot more and will do my best to do that.

JC: On a completely different subject…What can you tell me about a character by the name of “Dr. Muerto?” Hmmm?
KL: “The legend of Dr. Muerto”. You know about that? Well in Senora Mexico some years ago it was recorded that I set all the records for birds killed with the highest average per shot fired since records began according to Ernesto Zaragoza of Guymas. He waved the final shooting bill amounting to some $7,000.00 to prove it. I was shooting a Perazzi Type 1 SCO serial number 32188. Two bird boys could not keep up and it looked like Chu Lai, Vietnam battlefield August 18, 1965 where there was a few of us still standing. The ground was covered in death. Blood had come through two shirts and my shooting jacket joining us together. When the truck drove up with more shells, help and water, my bird boy Makai (who heads the hunting camp today in Zaragoza’s Senora) raised both arms as if to say “it’s over. Help us. The boys in the truck said “Muerto!! Madre Muerto! Dr. Muerto aki”. The Doctor of death is here. It means a lot to the Mexicans there and the story has reached even a small dove hunting pond in Dripping Springs, Texas. “Oh, Senior, Dr. Muerto he keal ALL the Poloma in Mexico! No Poloma. No Mas.” Well what is his NAME? “Oh, Senior he’s name…he’s name is Senior Tigre.” (Leopard) You’re crazy Mexican…..There is only one man I know of by the name of Lippard. He could HAVE killed all the birds in Mexico…”Si Senior, that’s em. Senior Tigre! Doctor Muerto of Guymas!!!!”…..That’s it then. Poloma no mas” Gracias amigo. Vaminos. In more detail the story was told that day before witnesses on the telephone by Larry Jenniges of Dripping Springs, Tx. I believe he was about 80 years old at the time. He asked if he was speaking to “Dr. Muerto.” I replied that my close friends call me that in respect for the Mexicans of Senora.

JC: As always Karl, it has been a pleasure speaking with you about a subject you and I and so many of our faithful readers love so much. I certainly hope and feel that you will be wonderfully successful in this venture and that Joseph Brazier, Ltd, becomes virtually a household name. At least among the gunmakers of the world.
KL: Thank you very much. My pleasure. God willing we can shoot some Clays soon. I would like that.

The subject matter discussed in this interview may very well change the methods used to make guns for all time.
Karl Lippard, in my opinion, has always been a man of vision. His relentless pursuit of precision and perfection, fortitude and overall character will keep the innovations described here at the absolute cutting edge of machining and manufacturing processes. What Karl has brought forward in the manner of superior machining technologies is for the best… for gun owners and gunmakers everywhere.